Introduction and Background

• Steven Dubner introduces bonus episode from 2015 interview with Madeleine Albright
• Part of series on America's immigration system
• Albright died 2022 at age 84
• Born Prague 1937, refugee twice in youth
• Served as US Secretary of State under Clinton, UN Ambassador

Albright's Personal Immigration Story

• Father was Czechoslovak diplomat
• First refugee experience: March 1939 (age 2) when Nazis marched into Prague
  • Family fled to London, lived as refugees during war
• Second refugee experience: November 1948 when Communists took over
  • Father refused to work for Communists, resigned/defected
  • Family came to US as "displaced persons," granted political asylum
• Father's observation: Other countries say "sorry, when are you going home" vs US says "when will you become citizens"
• Didn't become US citizen until junior year of college

Impact on Professional Worldview

• Background as "child of World War II and Cold War" informed geopolitical perspective
• As UN Ambassador, seeing Balkans situation reminded her of Holocaust
  • People loaded into trucks/trains, sent to concentration camps
  • Ethnic cleansing of Muslims in Bosnia/Kosovo
• Later discovered Jewish background, though Holocaust awareness predated personal knowledge
• Background "definitely informed the way I see things"

European Union and Schengen Agreement

• Generally supports Schengen agreement allowing free travel within EU
• Europe evolved from "two horrendous world wars" caused by "aggression and rampant nationalism"
• Small European countries with small distances compared to US
• Schengen based on open travel within Europe with rules for entry verification
• EU somewhat "faceless" - people need identity, group with "own kind" (ethnic, religious, linguistic)
• Return to national pride within Schengen system doesn't surprise her
• Virulent nationalism (especially Hungary) does surprise and damage process

Fear and Economic Concerns

• Basic issue is fear, often from economic loss sense
• Fear someone's "taken your job or your house or married your sister"
• Natural fear of economic deprivation exacerbated by demagogic leaders
• Cites Victor Orban in Hungary as example
• Leaders take advantage of compression/fear, make political ideology from it

Open Borders Philosophy

• Economist Alex Tabarok argues freedom to move is essential human right
• Discrimination based on birthplace compared to race/gender discrimination
• Albright: "I think it is a human right" but acknowledges "somebody's taking my bread" mentality
• In "best of all possible worlds" people could go wherever they want
• Not sure society ready to "accept everybody"
• Challenge: square need for identity/group pride without "hatred of somebody else"
• Currently zero-sum game mentality instead of additive approach
• Living in "borderless virtual world" due to technology

North American Integration

• Would personally support North American Schengen (US/Canada/Mexico)
• Worked on NAFTA during Clinton Administration
• Met regularly with Canadian/Mexican ambassadors, later foreign ministers
• Emphasized commonality: environment, culture, shared aspects
• Would need much more emphasis on cultural commonality
• Must balance "security versus openness"
• Can't operate on "Fear Factor" basis

Presidential Eligibility and Naturalized Citizens

• Excluded from presidential succession due to foreign birth
• Considers restriction "little bit of a strange historical Relic because of Hamilton"
• Believes naturalized citizens should be eligible after "living in country for long long time"
• Refused Czech Republic presidency offer from President Havel - hadn't lived there, didn't understand it

US Immigration Policy Assessment

• Characterizes policies as "episodic"
• "Mostly we have to remember that we are a country of immigrants"
• Policies "clearly have worked"
• Troubled by current discussion (as of 2015)
• Takes citizenship "very seriously"
• Participates in naturalization ceremonies
• Most moving ceremony: July 4, 2000 at Monticello during Millennium
• Tells new citizens: "this is the most important piece of paper you will ever get"

Syria Crisis Response

• Describes Syrian situation as "complicated as anything I've seen"
• Would have "done more earlier" supporting rebels
• Advocates establishing "safe zones" using lessons from Balkans
• Visited Jordan 2 years prior, aware of refugee burden
• Jordan, Lebanon, Turkey need additional help as "Frontline States"
• Emphasizes need for political solution
• People generally want to live where they were born, speak language, have family

Syrian Refugee Statistics and Solutions

• 12 million Syrians left homes due to war
• Half are children
• Many in neighboring countries, some heading to Europe
• Multi-part solution needed:
  • Political solution in Syria
  • Properly protected safe zones using Balkans lessons
  • More help to neighboring countries
  • UN/EU cooperation to build facilities near borders
  • Various countries accepting Syrian refugees

US Role and Capacity

• US has "room" for people compared to dense European populations
• Immigrants "have been pretty good citizens"
• Hard to tell other countries to act while US says "not here"
• Believes US is "exceptional nation of immigrants"
• Can't ask exceptions be made for US
• Need better example, support international organizations
• Ensure UN Refugee operation and World Food Program funded
• Multilateral approach needed

Diversity and Immigration Rules

• Quote: "diversity is what makes our societies richer in every single way"
• Need "certain rules for coming into a country"
• Jordan comparison: proportional refugee numbers equivalent to US having 60 million refugees
• US can't deal with 11 million undocumented workers
• Need rational immigration program: procedures, fairness, legality
• Important to know who people are, study Constitution
• Believes English proficiency important
• Default position: "we do benefit by the diversity"
• Syrian refugee screening process "stunningly detailed and rigorous"
• Appalled by officials saying "not in my state"
• People should put themselves in shoes of desperate, good people wanting to contribute

Personal Reflection

• Describes herself as "grateful American" on Twitter
• Tries to "pay back" every day
• Didn't have "tragic story" - came "in very dignified way"
• Has ship manifest from SS America, November 11, 1948
• Office displays commissions signed by Clinton and Medal of Freedom from Obama